Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Hi, everyone! Career Chat with Steve Crandall is now
live and moderated. To whisper during a moderated chat, you must highlight
Moderator, type your question, then click on the whisper button...
I'll sort through the questions, pick the best ones,
and submit them to the window for Steve to answer. Remember, chat attendees
have a chance to win MCP Magazine mugs and hats...
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Tonight's topic: Ageism and IT. Steve Crandall
explores age discrimination in IT hiring practices, plus answers your burning
MCSE career questions.
So, who has a question? Whisper them to me, not Steve.
Don't be shy now!
Host steve_crandall says:
Howdy, folks - what's new (notice I didn't say
"wazzup"!)
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Our first question of the night comes from Rodney.
Rodney asks: Steve, I assume that you recommend hiding your age in a
resume. As in putting down info that
doesn't give away your age until the interview?
Host steve_crandall says:
Yes - as much as you can - like don't give dates of
degrees or even job progressions - sooner or later that will come out ("So
when did you work at XYC Corp?"), but don't give them a reason to screen
your resume OUT
I had a great email this week from someone who seemed
to be perfect for a number of jobs - until the in-person interview - I'm not
saying that it's purely a case of discrimination, but it sounds suspicious
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
zzcatch22 says: : I'm 56 with 25 years experience,most
places make you fill out an application that has dates and says if it's
incomplete it may be rejected.
Host steve_crandall says:
Ah, the application - most places I've worked for
didn't have you fill out the application until you showed up on site for an
interview, in which case the age thing is pretty much blown.
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
this question has popped up a few times....usagi asks:
how old is "too old" to get into the industry?
Host steve_crandall says:
But, it is an issue - on the other hand, if the
company is the kind that needs to have the application before they will even
talk to you, then you might not want to work there. The application is a
formality that HR needs to produce government reports - if your resume gets you
in the door, the application shouldn't kill you.
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Don't forget to whisper your questions to me. To
whisper to me: highlight Moderator, type your question, then click on the
whisper button (the dotted line balloon near the bottom of chat window) to
"whisper" your question.
Host steve_crandall says:
How old is too old? Well, the easy answer is - if you
think you're too old, you're too old.
Seriously, the older you are the less opportunities
you have (realistically speaking) for entry-level positions. In that case,
volunteer work is an option.
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
jeffk asks: Hi Steve, I'm finishing up my MCSE and I
also have A+ and Network+ certifications.
At the age of 42, do I need to be concerned with my age? I have one and a half years of IT experience
and I'm presently unemployed. Thanks.
Host steve_crandall says:
Well, it's the "unemployed" part that
worries me most. What did you used to do, and what can you transfer from there
to where you want to be? Yes, you need to be concerned with your age - going
into a small startup of Gen Y'ers will be a problem - look for larger companies
where the manager tend to be older
Host steve_crandall says:
Have you noticed I'm starting every answer with
"Well..."? Can you remember Ronald Reagan? For that matter, can
Ronald Reagan remember Ronald Reagan?
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Rodney asks: Steve, how should one deal with age
discrimination? Is there an
organization that would address this?
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Whisper your burning career questions to me, I'll put
them in the queue.
Host steve_crandall says:
I believe that the EEOC has jurisdiction in age
discrimination cases, so check their web site (www.eeoc.gov, I think). PROVING
age discrimination is VERY difficult, especially on the hiring side. It is much
easier to prove on the termination/layoff side.
Host steve_crandall says:
For those of you who are wondering, I was hired into
my last job at the age of 50, and before that at 48, so it can be done...
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
usagi asks: I'm 36 and taking off a couple of years to
raise my kids - if I return to the workforce at 40 what are my prospects,
assuming I've kept my certs current? How old are the people typically being
discriminated against? 30s, 40s?
Host steve_crandall says:
I just checked while waiting for the next question -
it IS www.eeoc.gov
Host steve_crandall says:
Returning at 40 probably isn't a problem, but I would
urge you to keep not only your certifications up, but also your networking
(person -to-person). One easy way to do this is through users groups in the
area. I know that in many cases the visible person gets hired - the invisible
person struggles.
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
got questions? whisper them to me.
Host steve_crandall says:
As far as what age does discrimination start - it really depends upon the discriminator - a
young (22) manager may see anyone over 30 as a problem/threat
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Usagi, congratulations! You're now the proud owner of
an MCP Mag hat.
We're about
halfway through the chat and you are all asking excellent questions
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Rodney asks: Steve, have you seen age discrimination
in the workplace personally? If so how
does it compare vs. "getting a job" age discrimination?
Host steve_crandall says:
I'm not sure what you mean by age discrimination in
the workplace - although I don't think it has happened to me, I have known of
cases where people are not given great assignments or other opportunities
because they are "too old".
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
You are all asking excellent questions. We have
several in the queue now. We may not get to them all at this rate....
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Rodney says that's what he means
Host steve_crandall says:
And I don't want to minimize age discrimination - I
think it is a HUGE problem and will only get worse as we baby-boomers who first
played with technology get older
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Along those lines, connie says: One place I have seen
ageism is in the workplace; in my previous job we had a mix of current and
legacy technology; the younger workers got the new technology and the older
workers were stuck with legacy
Host steve_crandall says:
But there is another problem that Usagi brought up
earlier - discrimination against women of child-bearing years - I know of LOTS
of cases where women were not given a good career track because they
"might" want to have a child
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
pdwight asks:
who's more likely to discriminate: large, mid-level or small co.?
Host steve_crandall says:
Ok, on to Connie- yes, of course this is going to
happen - the natural human tendency is to believe that only people over 50
could handle 10" reels of tape or could spell MVS - but it is up to the
individuals in those situations to break out of the legacy mold they're stuck
in
Host steve_crandall says:
pdwight - I think that a small, NEWER company would be
more likely - less institutional controls, less bureaucratic regulations, less
fear of lawsuits. But I KNOW it happens at all size companies - the larger ones
are just easier targets
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Great questions everyone. By the way, I'm *sure*
you've all read Steve's Professionally Speaking column this month, but if you
haven't, check it out on the mcpmag web site.
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Rodney asks: Steve, How often do you find being too
young a bad thing. I worked with a
company that wanted to hire people 14 and up since technology is a thing of the
young, according to the CEO. Most of
the clients I had would not let the kids tend the store. Worked out great for me.
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
And the ears of all the young people in the room
searching for jobs suddenly perked up
Host steve_crandall says:
Wow, Rodney - I think the moderator should pull
something out of the prize bag for you - great questions - Here's a problem
with very young people - they have a sense of immortality and self-importance
that is very difficult to deal with...
What I mean is that you can't count on any sense of
loyalty, company allegiance, committment to a larger group goal, etc.
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Congrats Rodney! you're now the proud owner of an MCP
Mag hat.
Host steve_crandall says:
I know I'm over generalizing, but in many cases it's
true - as long as you have something insanely great for them to do, and ply
them with the latest toys, they'll stick around - otherwise, they're gone -
"Vesting? Why would I want to wear one of those?
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
bert asks: Steve,
if you are older, should you look for a position leaning toward IT
management?
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Only about fifteen minutes left in the chat folks ....
Host steve_crandall says:
Bert - don't fall into that trap - management is only
for those who WANT to be managers - you've jumped ahead to the finish line,
thinking that management is where all folks eventually want to end up, so an
older person should just cut to the chase. There are still great positions
available for older folks who are enthusiastic and open to new ideas and
technology
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
zzcatch22 asks: Is there any area that is age
transparent-help desk,programing?
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Congrats zzcatch22, you've just won yourself a MCP
mug. Thanks for coming tonight!
Host steve_crandall says:
Have you ever noticed that the rewards start coming
out more frequently at the end of a chat? Sort of an online equivalent of
"the girls all get prettier at closing time"
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
You're all beautiful! ;)
Host steve_crandall says:
Anyway, zzcatch22, age transparency - well, I really
haven't noticed - and the age question has a number of different facets -
partly it depends upon whether you mean entry-level positions for older career
changers or the problem of "what do we do with old Joe?"
I would venture to say that anything that you can do
remotely (programming being a prime example) is probably less age-dependent
than others. Remote positions also have the tendency to be more flexible, which
can suit an older person as well
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
bobnh asks: Is the 'age discrimination' in the IT
arena related more to age appearance, age attitude, or enthusiasm for latest
technology, on the part of those discriminated against, or does it just seem to
be usual peer-age issues?
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Only about 10 more minutes left in the chat.
We've got more questions than we can handle!
If you don't see your question posted, feel free to
come back next month for Steve's career chat!
Host steve_crandall says:
Bobnh - well, those who ACT old will definitely find a
problem - I think it is more in the area of old appearance. Definitely someone
who starts every sentence with "When I was YOUR age..." will have a
problem relating to younger peers. However, just BEING old can be a liability,
especially if the manager doesn't know how to deal with the age difference
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Rodney asks: Steve for the OLD it guys does the
ability to handle the older systems DOS, WIN 3.1 ever come to play?
Host steve_crandall says:
Well, sorta kinda - think of the kind of organization
that still uses or depends on Dos or Win 3.1?
Yeah, they can probably use all the help they can get,
but is there a future in it? DO they have the kind of money to pay a person
decently? Why haven't they upgraded? After all, Windows 95 was SIX years ago!
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Last question folks
roy asks: I lost my job in agricultural sales after 21
years. I spent the last 6 months in IT
training and have A+, Network+, and MCP certs.
If I pass IIS by Wed I will have MCSE, at 46 do I still have a shot at a
good career
Host steve_crandall says:
OF COURSE! America is the land of opportunity! But you
know, I would kinda start thinking about how to combine your agricultural
experience with your technical knowledge - like a company that has a package
for farmers, or consulting on how to improve ag yields through information
technology
I know I'm stereotyping here, but I would think that
the agricultural community would be more open to older, more experienced folks
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Thanks for attending, folks. Let's all thank Steve for
taking time out of his busy schedule to answer all of our questions....
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Thanks for all your great questions
chris Thanks
Rodney says:
Thanks Steve!
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Thanks steve
jeffk says:
Thanks Steve!
connie says:
Thanks Steve
pdwight says:
Much thanks, Steve
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
you can speak out loud now
eve says:
Thanks Steve
bert says:
Thanks Steve!
BobnH says:
Thanks...great chat.
Host steve_crandall says:
You are all very welcome - I hope this was some help
to you
sam says:
thanks steve
scanner says:
Thanks Steve...excellent info!
roy says:
Thanks Steve
jeffk says:
yes it was
demarc says:
Thanks Steve
krash says:
good questions, good answers thanks
demarc says:
Free Bird !!!!!
Rodney says:
Bird Who???
eve says:
Nite All
Rodney says:
Free Johnny Horton!
demarc says:
Skynard !!!
mohamed says:
thanks I will...
Rodney says:
Nope Mines Older
Ilya says:
ÍÛ-ÍÛ!
demarc says:
I guess I'm not as old as I thought ;)
Rodney says:
;)
Rodney says:
I'm only 32 but I have weird tastes in Music
Host ModeratorEHoyt says:
Come back next month, March 19, for another career
chat with Steve